tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post7386495169793775491..comments2023-10-26T05:38:40.356-07:00Comments on Dead Ryks Underground: Choosing to BelieveRykhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-41083107691310436612009-08-02T16:26:20.209-07:002009-08-02T16:26:20.209-07:00JD,
You seem to have again missed the point I was...JD,<br /><br />You seem to have again missed the point I was making.<br /><br />I've lost interest now.<br /><br />BTW scroll up and you might notice several of <a href="http://rykunderground.blogspot.com/2009/07/choosing-to-believe.html?showComment=1248864208079#c8427395936764860693" rel="nofollow">my questions</a> to you that went unanswered. I, however, didn't lower myself to insulting your intelligence.<br /><br />Good day.rhiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16246371823456833408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-27714622158375211062009-08-02T15:41:50.039-07:002009-08-02T15:41:50.039-07:00Here is my response to your post on the other thre...Here is my response to your post on the other thread, it is off topic there but appropriate here so this is where it should continue.<br /><br />JD Is Satan the equal or superior of Yahwheh? If so your case makes sense otherwise it is silly and insipid. If Yahwheh is omnipotent then any actions of his angels fallen or otherwise are his responsibility.<br /><br />If I were perfectly aware that one of my children or employees or whatever were abducting and torturing people, and if it would require nothing but my say so to make them stop and I chose not to then I am equally responsible for the torture. Simple. Furthermore using Satan as a scapegoat is dishonest because as I understand it Satan does not decide who is placed in hell or not, am I wrong about this because if I am that would be interesting to say the least.<br /><br />It is my understanding that Yahwheh is supposed to be omnipotent and the creator of everything. Does your brand of Christianity disagree?Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-61184301460837978382009-08-02T15:40:46.719-07:002009-08-02T15:40:46.719-07:00Yes JD there is evidence to indicate that maybe a ...Yes JD there is evidence to indicate that maybe a man named Jesus or Yeshua or Yeshu or somesuch lived, said things and was crucified. I am not denying that. I don't necessarily support it either but it is such a matter of indifference that I will grant it to you. That is not evidence of gods or magic or talking snakes or whatever. Just some messiah wannabe pf which there were several getting killed for heressy. I am not sure where you are going with that.Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-74675335364126253092009-08-02T14:03:51.944-07:002009-08-02T14:03:51.944-07:00It's a simple question and if you cannot answe...It's a simple question and if you cannot answer it, just say so. If it's not above your level of intellect, then "yes", "no" or "I don't know" would all be acceptable answers. <br /><br />If you arent too taxed by that question, then tackle my 2nd one that you havent answered. Again...<br /><br />" Please explain how this is not a reductio ad absurdum of the ontological argument. Is it just another form of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (fallacious)argument?"<br /><br />This is to determine if we are talking about the same thing. I googled your hammer reference and only had 1 hit of any consequence. It appeared to be just another version of the spaghetti monster but I wanted to make sure before continuing. <br /><br /><br />I was referring to Jesus Christ in my previous post and yes, there are sources independent of the Bible that provide evidence of his historical existence.J Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12746127431922685446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-23771059927743954362009-08-02T12:56:58.802-07:002009-08-02T12:56:58.802-07:00JD,
Whether I believe in the Invisible Pink Hamme...JD,<br /><br />Whether I believe in the Invisible Pink Hammer or not is irrelevant.<br /><br />The point is that since you clearly <b>do not</b> believe in this entity, you are an ahammerist. Similarly, Stalin and Pol Pot were ahammerists.<br /><br />Thus by <i>your</i> logic you Stalin and Pol Pot are co-religionists.<br /><br />That's all :)rhiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16246371823456833408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-52459664748456929142009-08-02T11:33:32.297-07:002009-08-02T11:33:32.297-07:00JD who is the talking snake that devotees of your ...JD who is the talking snake that devotees of your Bible claim was a historical figure. Are there any scolars of note of any non Abrahamic belief system that were contemporaries of this historical talking snake that recorded it's existence so that we may examine these writings in this day and age? Or how about talking donkeys?(numbers 22:22) Giants?(Numbers 13:20/ Dueteronomy 3:11 among others)Unicorns?(numbers 23:22, Job 39:9-12,Isaiah 34:7 Psalm 29:6). <br /><br />I personally don't believe in faeries but we can establish that there were people who did just as we can establish that there were people who believed in your God and unicorns and talking snakes and giants and talking donkeys etc.<br /><br />How is the Celtic tradition of little people and fair folk any different from the Bibles myths about giants and unicorns? Admittedly the oral tradition of the Celts leaves less in the way of documentation but no one doubts that they had myths about the fey. Just as no one doubts that the writers of the OT believed in unicorns and giants. Similarly there are people today who believe in faeries, giants and unicorns. <br /><br />So what is the point of your question again?Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-76289444231976618022009-08-02T10:17:05.256-07:002009-08-02T10:17:05.256-07:00Thunderf00t proposed that he could imagine a guy c...<i>Thunderf00t proposed that he could imagine a guy called Todd who was an all-knowing being that gave him comfort, etc... What is the difference between an imaginary entity such as Todd and the Christian God?</i><br /><br />Let me ask you Rhiggs, Do you believe in a Giant Pink Hammer? Yes or no? Please explain how this is not a <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> of the ontological argument. Is it just another form of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (fallacious)argument? <br /><br /><br /><i>For as long as you say people have believed in Jesus/God, there have been people(my people) who've believed in fairies/little people/whatever you want to call it. This is no joke. Yes, many of these people believe in Jesus/God too, however, their pagan beliefs were just as strong.</i><br /><br />Monkey girl, exactly who are the fairies that the devotees of fairyism claim were historic personages? When did they live? What were their names? Are there any scholars of any note of the non-fairyism belief system that were contemporaries of these fairies of history that recorded their existance that we might examine their writings in this day and age?J Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12746127431922685446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-16363556845261265182009-07-31T20:55:40.117-07:002009-07-31T20:55:40.117-07:00ok. Come to my blog in a couple minutes. I'll ...ok. Come to my blog in a couple minutes. I'll try to answer you.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11366857783764421569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-75098714008062018682009-07-31T20:43:13.943-07:002009-07-31T20:43:13.943-07:00Tracy
If your faith is neither emotional or empir...Tracy<br /><br />If your faith is neither emotional or empirical, what is it? I was not trying to misrepresent you, apparently I misunderstood you.Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-3898011731758735112009-07-31T20:24:38.781-07:002009-07-31T20:24:38.781-07:00It isn't emotional faith ryk. thanks for the d...It isn't emotional faith ryk. thanks for the defense though.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11366857783764421569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-61194057887365476732009-07-31T20:04:40.141-07:002009-07-31T20:04:40.141-07:00Monkeygirl,
If ryk didn't want to engage in c...Monkeygirl,<br /><br />If ryk didn't want to engage in conversations with me about converting to Christianity then all he would need to do is say so and I would bow out gracefully. I will not push Jesus on anyone. However, at this point he chooses to listen to me for which I am grateful.<br /><br />It's pretty much a given that ryk and I have agreed to disagree on nearly everything we speak about.<br /><br />I feel the need to convert people... It's something that God Himself has established with in me. It's His heart for the lost. It's His work and His deal. I am only the vessel He works through. <br /><br />It's so hard to stop trying to help people understand because I truly ache and grieve for the lost. For you and anyone. Right now I am intensely burdened for ryk.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11366857783764421569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-10727126817164209872009-07-31T13:25:21.866-07:002009-07-31T13:25:21.866-07:00In defense of Tracy, I do understand that she is n...In defense of Tracy, I do understand that she is not trying to be circular and I get where she is coming from. Her talk about heart level knowledge is essentially meaning that if you believe emotionally then there can be no rational objection that will matter. Tracy doesn't need evidence, logic or consistency of argument because she has faith. Unlike Ray and others who play at faith and make up huge complicated apologetics, Tracy is just saying believe.<br /><br />That is why I like her. Her position is perfectly honest and free of bullshit. When she tries to stray into the land of apologetics that is less true, but even then she stays clear of the obvious lunacy that the wannabe scientists and philosophers try to throw out.<br /><br />My problem is that my emotions are not seperate from my reasoning. I am unable to believe anything emotionally. As I said to Tracy in another post, I am not a purely scientific naturalist. I will accept intuition and feeling and hunches as a sort of evidence, but I haven't even gotten those about anything supernatural.<br /><br />That is why I fail in making myself believe, I need something to believe in. Primitive old legends aren't working for me at all.Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-87226042496303005252009-07-31T10:02:33.418-07:002009-07-31T10:02:33.418-07:00My comment may have been a bit light hearted for t...My comment may have been a bit light hearted for this discussion, but it still holds true for me.<br /><br />I come from a deep, long, strong Irish background. For as long as you say people have believed in Jesus/God, there have been people(my people) who've believed in fairies/little people/whatever you want to call it. This is no joke. Yes, many of these people believe in Jesus/God too, however, their pagan beliefs were just as strong.<br /><br />I just don't see any need for this circular discussion. Agree to disagree.<br /><br />You may feel the need to convert people, but many people don't feel the way you do, or feel they need converting. <br /><br />Even as interesting as this discussion has been to read, why is it soooo hard for you to let people 'not believe' in your God?monkey girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234810881929268484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-25617019700137255832009-07-31T09:21:01.091-07:002009-07-31T09:21:01.091-07:00If discerment is God given how am I turning it off...If discerment is God given how am I turning it off? I am allowing God to reveal Himself to me.<br /><br />I keep hearing about circular logic.<br />I will say this- All of the circles of my life come back to Jesus.<br /><br />I am DONE with the circles of others' knowledge, mindsets, influences, etc..<br /><br />I am not going to go around the same old mountains and come to the ideas I read here and other places that are utterly confusing, confounding and dreadfully empty! This can only lead you back to them again and again and again. Because that's all there is for you and the others.<br /><br />Nearly everthing I say is analyzed to death and twisted. Take what I say back to Jesus. And see what He has to say about it?<br /><br />I am not trying to be rude or mean, please don't take me that way.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11366857783764421569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-4760181160766615892009-07-31T08:37:38.018-07:002009-07-31T08:37:38.018-07:00"...you said- The point I am trying to make i..."<i>...you said- The point I am trying to make is that I do not believe that "trusting like a child" is appropriate to coming to a decision about whether or not Christianity is true.<br /><br />As long as you hold onto that view you will never know if Christianity is true b/c you are not in agreement with the word of God.</i>"<br /><br />Paraphrased: "You will not believe Christianity to be true if you don't agree with the bible, which says Christianity is true."<br /><br />That is circular logic. If it is circular logic, you are just saying you believe it because you believe it. That is fine as a statement of faith, but should not be confused with reasoning..<br /><br />"<i>You said- when things proclaimed in a religion do not line up with things observed, we need to exercise our adult discernment.<br /><br />Faith goes by things you do not see. <br />Discernment is God given.<br />We need to conform our minds to the things of God-His word, not the world's take on ANYTHING!</i>"<br /><br />You are making the choice to believe the bible and turn off your discernment. As rhiggs said above: "<i>At this stage you already believe it to be true so you will see everything with bias and simply ignore any evidence to the contrary.</i>"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-40567368283113765552009-07-31T08:23:08.464-07:002009-07-31T08:23:08.464-07:00"The requirement that one needs to accept Chr..."<i>The requirement that one needs to accept Christianity as truth prior to having a relationship with God is just plain silly.</i>"<br /><br />rhiggs, I share your conclusion completely. Your entire last comment explained the reason for that very well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-49053902723329673902009-07-31T07:02:33.919-07:002009-07-31T07:02:33.919-07:00Ryk,
That's it exactly. If you convince yours...Ryk,<br /><br />That's it exactly. If you convince yourself something is real, then you will necessarily believe it to be true. If you also believe it is a source of comfort, morals, happiness, an everlasting afterlife, etc, then this is just going to reinforce your belief.<br /><br />It's like the God vs Todd example that Thunderf00t used in his <a href="http://fourdollarsalmostfive.blogspot.com/2009/07/thunderf00t-vs-comfort.html" rel="nofollow">debate</a> with Ray. Thunderf00t proposed that he could imagine a guy called Todd who was an all-knowing being that gave him comfort, etc... What is the difference between an imaginary entity such as Todd and the Christian God? Ray struggled to find an answer and came up with "God is described in the bible"...so if someone just documented Todd and his teachings then there would be no difference between an imaginary being and God.<br /><br />In other words, anyone can convince themselves something is true, especially if it makes them feel good. That is not evidence that it is true. <br /><br />The requirement that one needs to accept Christianity as truth prior to having a relationship with God is just plain silly. It is the same as someone having to accept Invisible Pink Hammerism as truth prior to having a relationship with his Hammerness. At this stage you <b>already believe it to be true</b> so you will see everything with bias and simply ignore any evidence to the contrary.rhiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16246371823456833408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-10718594164516203632009-07-31T06:31:37.439-07:002009-07-31T06:31:37.439-07:00Rhiggs
That is one of the biggest obstacles I hav...Rhiggs<br /><br />That is one of the biggest obstacles I have been having with this thing. I have to know that if I actually do force myself to believe, will I be believing because it is true, or will I be totally convinced that there is a god and that I have a relationship with is, simply because I have chosen to believe that. Could I just as easily(well so far it isn't easy) force myself to have a relationship with the pink hammer? Would that feel just as real? Would it be true because I felt it to be real?Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-59387374854918441972009-07-31T03:21:08.900-07:002009-07-31T03:21:08.900-07:00Tracey,
"As long as you hold onto that view ...Tracey,<br /><br />"<i>As long as you hold onto that view you will never know if Christianity is true b/c you are not in agreement with the word of God.<br /><br />You have to know that Christianity is true in order to have a relationship with God.</i>"<br /><br /><br />I assume you can see the problem with this?<br /><br />In order to know it is true, you first have to accept it as true.<br /><br />Huh?<br /><br />A Scientologist would probably say that once you accept Scientology as truth, then you will know it is true. This sounds <i>equally</i> as reasonable (or unreasonable) to me. How can you separate your claims from that of a Scientologist...or any other religion for that matter?rhiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16246371823456833408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-90503139038100183932009-07-31T03:00:22.981-07:002009-07-31T03:00:22.981-07:00JD,
Based on your logic all of the below are your...JD,<br /><br />Based on your logic all of the below are <i>your</i> co religionists with respect to a belief in the Invisible Pink Hammer:<br /><br />Jean-Marie Collot d'Herbois<br /><br />Jean Nicolas Billaud-Varenne<br /><br />Pol Pot<br /><br />Stalin<br /><br />Lenin<br /><br />Enver Hoxha<br /><br />Erik Honecker<br /><br />Choibalsan<br /><br />So, by your own logic, clearly <i>your</i> worldview is responsible for any atrocities caused by these people. <br /><br />Shame on you ahammerists.rhiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16246371823456833408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-87570205288028225252009-07-30T18:53:58.068-07:002009-07-30T18:53:58.068-07:00I can not possibly have Co religionist because I h...I can not possibly have Co religionist because I have no religion. A theism mean quite literally "without religion" There are of course other people who have no religion, you listed some and as you pointed out they have a wide variety of viewpoints. That pretty much reinforces the fact that atheism is not a religion. A religion is a set of beliefs and dogma. Atheists have no shared belief except for some of us believe there is no god. Others simply don't believe there is. I am one of the former but I am actually a minority. Most atheists are of the latter type. Where to Muslims or Christians will share common beliefs and attitudes such as Pat Robertson, Jerhimiah Wright and Fred Phelps all claiming that the attacks on the world trade center and pentagon were gods punishment on America for various sins. However I share no common beliefs with Stalin for instance, I am completely anti-communist, and I oppose torture and murder. Sure we agree that there is no evidence of a god, and if Josef was a gnostic atheist like myself we would agree that there is no god, but that is simply a point of agreement on one issue, hardly a religion. That would be like calling people who agree that they like the color red co religionists. Calling not having religion a religion is just another silly semantics game which seems to be your principle tool of debate.Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-49643596566622471742009-07-30T18:46:09.882-07:002009-07-30T18:46:09.882-07:00@JD
You are obviously playing silly semantics game...@JD<br />You are obviously playing silly semantics games in just about every post you make. In regards to your god torturing, here are chapters that mention there being a hell Romans 2:7-9; 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Matthew 5:22, 18:8-9; Mark 9:43-49 Matthew 8:12; 22:13 Hebrews 10:27 2 Peter 3:7 Jude 7 Jude 13 Revelation 20:10 Revelation 14:11 Luke 16:19-31 In Revelation 20:13-14. Since you claim you believe there is a hell and that your god created it, and that it is the punishment for sin and that your god decides who is saved and not saved then your god sentences people to hell for their sins. Since hell is described as a place of torture then your god is a god of torture. The scriptures may not show it with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch doing the deed himself but it is his system, his rules his punishment his doing. Simple. Semantics do not change that and I am surprised you would try.<br /><br />As to faeries and unicorns. As I said there is exactly the same amount of evidence for them as there is for man gods and talking snakes...None. There may be more evidence of Christians than there is of Celts, although a european historian may be able to dispute that, but I won't claim otherwise. So it is good that you can present evidence that Christians exist but I wasn't disputing that. Not only do I believe in Christians existing, I also believe that before there were Christians there were Jews, and that they wrote a book of myths, and like other cultures who have written myths they used real places and maybe even real people in their imaginary god stories. However this is only evidence of superstitious people believing stuff it isn't evidence of anything supernatural.Rykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16424545934239146403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-90190344006671685402009-07-30T16:56:31.020-07:002009-07-30T16:56:31.020-07:00Rhiggs, if you like, start a thread at your blog. ...Rhiggs, if you like, start a thread at your blog. Repost our last exchange and we can chat over there if you like.J Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12746127431922685446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-38789016207676893792009-07-30T16:49:50.285-07:002009-07-30T16:49:50.285-07:00Is there a hell according to you?
According to Sc...<i>Is there a hell according to you?</i><br /><br />According to Scripture there exists a Hell. And yes, I believe it exists.<br /><br /><i>Is there torture in this hell?</i><br /><br />Like waterboarding? Really? I don't know. People who report NDE's in which they claim to have visited Hell before being revived make it sound just as bad as the worst torture you could imagine. Irregardless, it's safe to assume it's a horrible place that no one in their right mind would ever want to spend 1 moment there, nevermind all of eternity.<br /><br /><i>Is your God omnipotent?</i><br /><br />His grace is sufficient for me. I don't ever worry about God not being powerful enough for something. <br /><br /><i>Did it set the criteria for who is tortured and who is not?</i><br /><br />A poorly worded question on 2 accounts and I'll tell you why.<br />1) You still havent cited for me chapter and verse where God is actually engaged in "torturing" someone and I will continue to believe that such evidence does not exist until you provide a reason for me to believe otherwise.<br />2) According to your logic, in the state that I live in, the Florida state legislature and governor Charlie Crist are "torturing" everyone in the state prison system, even though these inmates led their own lives and made their own decisions as to what crimes they were going to commit before being sentenced. If this is different, please explain why. <br /><br /><i>I do not have any Co religionists as far as I know</i><br /><br />Surely you jest. Please let me refresh your memory as you reaquaint yourself with some of your more famous brethren.<br /><br />Jean-Marie Collot d'Herbois<br /><br />Jean Nicolas Billaud-Varenne<br /><br />Pol Pot<br /><br />Stalin<br /><br />Lenin<br /><br />Enver Hoxha<br /><br />Erik Honecker<br /><br />Choibalsan<br /><br />and I could name many other leaders who are historically confirmed to have said that they are atheists or that there is no God or that there are no gods. No sky daddy holding them accountable. No wonder 58% of all atheist leaders are responsible for the non-martial murders of a BARE MINIMUM of 20,000 people. If 58% of Catholic leaders had this type of track record, could you imagine the outcry?<br /><br /><i>I did not say there is as much archaeological evidence of people who believed in faeries as there are of people who believed in Christian mythology I said there was some.</i><br /><br />Actually, if you look above, you said "As far as physical evidence goes there really is just as much evidence for faeries and unicorns as there is for man gods and talking snakes."<br />Thus far you havent provided any physical evidence, archeological or otherwise, for the existance of fairies or unicorn based on their foundational documents as this evidence seems as elusive as the "God is torturing people" hypothesis you have put forward.J Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12746127431922685446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8134425139563359175.post-21480570868930562102009-07-30T13:48:57.275-07:002009-07-30T13:48:57.275-07:00atimetorend,
I beleive Christianity to be true be...atimetorend,<br /><br />I beleive Christianity to be true because I did my part and trusted and God proved Himself to me so strongly that I would die for it. <br /><br />You said- when things proclaimed in a religion do not line up with things observed, we need to exercise our adult discernment.<br /><br />Faith goes by things you do not see. <br />Discernment is God given.<br />We need to conform our minds to the things of God-His word, not the world's take on ANYTHING! <br /><br />you said- The point I am trying to make is that I do not believe that "trusting like a child" is appropriate to coming to a decision about whether or not Christianity is true.<br /><br />As long as you hold onto that view you will never know if Christianity is true b/c you are not in agreement with the word of God.<br /><br />You have to know that Christianity is true in order to have a relationship with God.<br /><br />It is with God given discernment that you can distinguish the voice of God from one's own or any demonic voices. Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice."Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11366857783764421569noreply@blogger.com